As Iron Sharpens Iron

An ongoing and online discussion between: an Orthodox informed Ecumaniac without a denominational home, an ordained Baptist youth pastor with an open mind, a Calvinist worship leader/seminarian with a staggering vocabulary and ability to make a point, and a cradle Catholic with a love/hate relationship to Rome.

Monday, September 05, 2005

Discussion with Sibling on the Last Post

deliCat monster: hey
Herveus: sup?
deliCat monster: im looking at your blog
deliCat monster: i just posted a reply
Herveus: Cool, cool, I'll read it...
Welly welly well. I can't believe I hadn't heard this story. I also can't believe that my dear husband hasn't posted a reply yet. Here's my thoughts:
1) I think you are off about having a choice after we die. That seems about as much as to say that everyone goes to heaven...which you may believe, I'm not sure. But I don't.

2) You missed a golden opportunity to slam Calvin. Not only does he believe that our fates are set before we die, he belives we are predestined for hell before ever being born! (Sorry Aaron, I know you hate it when I oversimplify)

3) Something I have considered is regarding the verse in romans I think which is calligraphied on the living room wall about "having no excuse on judgment day". I personally believe that somehow God gets through to everyone whether or not they have heard the westernized version of Christianity (deepest darkest africa types). How that happens I am not sure. But the main thrust of my belief is this: No one goes to hell without some kind of an opportunity for heaven. Before death. Which would leave Josiah cold unfortunately, or hot, I suppose. BUT! Josiah can't just say "I don't believe in God anymore" if he ever really did. Nothing can take us from God!!
Herveus: I think I proved, with the example of Satan, that just because everyone might have a chance to decide after they die doesn't mean that everyone will choose Jesus. Satan didn't.
Herveus: ANd I thought about using the Romans verse too, but it was getting too long.
deliCat monster: welllll, i tihink satan is a special case
Herveus: Well, what about all the people who die never having heard of Jesus.
deliCat monster: well, like i said, based on the romans verse, i think that people can somehow come to a saving knowledge sans hearing a preacher
deliCat monster: don't know how common that is
Herveus: It better be plenty common, 'cause there are lots and lots of people who have died never having heard the gospel.
deliCat monster: well not my job to figure out who goes to heaven and who goes to hell
deliCat monster: i dont think theres a quota
Herveus: Actually, there is. Revelations says there are people from every tribe and tongue.
deliCat monster: yes and?
Herveus: So, it's a racial quota!
deliCat monster: maybe just one!
deliCat monster: a quota of one is not a very big quota
Herveus: Just trying to be funny!
Herveus: Tell that to God ...
Herveus: 1. People have gone to heaven who never heard of Jesus 2. People are still alive who will die never having heard of Jesus. 3. Many beings have chosen to reject God/Jesus, knowing him fully. 4. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that we will all be given that same option.
Herveus: Oh, and the church is a piss-poor witness of Jesus, so people on Earth can't truly know him.
deliCat monster: 1) what is your definition of "heard"
deliCat monster: 2) you have a lot to contend with saying that people have understood jesus fully and rejected him
Herveus: Well, that's actually a bit complicated. When I say "heard" I mean even hearing his name, or of him. But really I mean knowing it to be true. That's something entirely different.
deliCat monster: well i use the term "heard" to mean "given an opportunity to accept"
Herveus: What do you mean (2)? I know that Satan knew him fully and rejected/rebelled against him. Why couldn't we?
deliCat monster: ive made that same argument
Herveus: So what if you're given an opportunity? Someone may give me an opportunity to believe that aliens seeded the earth, but I have no proof of it. Why should I believe it based on some kook's word?
deliCat monster: just saying that there are a lot of people (aaron) who would mount a fairly convincing argument that people who "reject" don't understand
deliCat monster: well the argument you are making there is for effectual calling
deliCat monster: calling actually by the holy spirit
Herveus: Except Satan did. And if I agree with Aaron as far as people on earth. Which is why I don't think it's true rejection. How can you reject something you don't understand?
Herveus: Now that's a good point. We know that Peter was inspired to his confession of faith by the Holy Spirit. One could also argue that everyone is given that same moment of clarity, when they KNOW it (the gospel) to be true. I could accept that, but regardless of whether it is on earth or in heaven, everyone has to know FOR CERTAIN, or they can't really reject.
deliCat monster: well, i think it's on earth and it can be mediated by God alone in the wilderness...doesnt matter where just as long as everyone gets a break
Herveus: Is this you or Aaron? Effectual calling? Mediated in the wilderness? Have you been reading Aaron's textbooks?

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